龚鹏程对话海外学者第八十期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。
米瑞安·德瑞森（Miriam Driessen）
牛津大学全球与区域研究学院（School of Global Area Studies）、东方研究学院（Oriental Institute）硕士生导师，牛津大学“中国、法律与发展项目”资深研究员。
阿姆斯特丹大学文化人类学与比较社会学学士、柏林理工学院城市文史科硕士、牛津大学人类学博士。
龚鹏程 ：您好。您的研究，好像集中在工人，而且是移居的打工仔。对于这个群体，热门的应该是政治、经济问题（就像您写过书评的《共同进化的实用主义: 中非经济合作的途径与影响》和《塑造权力的未来: 中非关系中的知识生产和网络建设》等等），可是您不太关注这些，而关注日常生活的衣（例如您写过《中国制造，非洲时尚：埃塞俄比亚和莫桑比克的民族服饰》）、住（例如您写过《移居非洲:埃塞俄比亚的中国“蜗居者”》、性（例如您写过《拯救男子气概：在中国婚姻压力之下的性别赋予》，甚至语言（例如您的《洋泾浜语：埃塞俄比亚中国建筑工地的语言颠覆》《在非洲做工程项目的中国人的 “吃苦” 与 “诉苦”》）。为什么选择这个角度？并请介绍一下您最近对中国在亚洲和非洲的劳动力迁移的研究，中国外来务工人员的日常生活是怎样的？
米瑞安·德瑞森 ：龚教授，您好。2009 年，我在埃塞俄比亚首都亚的斯亚贝巴读到了 BBC World 新闻报道中关于中国道路建设者的文章。这是一片很生动的文章，描绘了建设者们的生活和工作方式。这篇报道激发了我的研究兴趣。后来，当我不得不为我的博士项目选择一个主题时，我再次想起了这个故事。我决定更多地了解选择移居海外工作的中国道路建设者，包括认证工程师和经验更为丰富的工作者。
2011 年，我前往埃塞俄比亚进行为期一年的实地调研，其中一部分时间我就住在建筑工地沿线的工人营地。中国大院通常与城镇分开，非常孤立。一些居民将居住区比作“监狱”，将他们在海外的生活比作“被拘留的时间”。每天的工作枯燥而重复，而孤独的生活又把时间拉得更长。工作日长达 7 天，工作日至少 10 小时，期间有集体进餐和短暂的午休。到了晚上，工人们回到房间看电视剧，或者在乒乓球室中消遣。在居住区中的生活也算欢快，因为一群孤独的男性之间更容易产生共情的心理。事实上，大多数营地居民都是男性。在我的《苦涩的希望：中国路工在非洲》中，我详细描述了筑路者在日常工作中所面临的考验和磨难。
从一开始，我便对中国工程师和筑路工人移居海外的动机很感兴趣。 是什么驱使这么多男性来到非洲？ 在 1990 年到 2000 年，男性主要依托国内建筑公司前往海外目的地。我惊讶地发现，在中国购置房产或为了抵押*款贷**是他们移居海外的主要原因。大多数来自中国农村的男性想要进入社会生活，就需要找工作、买房和结婚。由于无法依靠家人的经济支持，他们自己承担了购买购置房产的费用。 移居海外使他们省钱很多费用。 他们不仅赚得更多，而且开支也大大减少。 然而，在购买了第一套房产后，许多人留了下来，选择购买第二套房产，因为成为移民早已成为了一种生活方式。
In 2009 I read a BBC World news article on Chinese road builders in Addis Abeba, the capital of Ethiopia. It was a vivid account, depicting how they lived and worked. It sparked my interest. Later, when I had to choose a topic for my doctoral project I was reminded of the story. I decided to learn more about Chinese road builders, both certified engineers and experienced builders, who had chosen to move overseas for work.
In 2011 I left for Ethiopia for one year of field research, part of which I spent living in workers’ camps along the construction sites. Often set apart from towns, Chinese compounds were quite isolated. Some of the residents compared the camps to prison and their life overseas as time spent in custody. Days were repetitive. Months away from their family proceeded slowly. Weekdays were seven days long, workdays at least ten hours, punctuated by shared meals and an afternoon nap. In the evenings, workers retreated into their rooms to watch tv series or disappeared into the table tennis room to release steam. Social life in the camps was marked by conviviality by virtue by a shared experience of isolation and male bonding. Indeed, most camp residents were men. In my book Tales of Hope, Tastes of Bitterness: Chinese Road Builders in Ethiopia (title in Chinese: 苦涩的希望：中国路工在非洲), I describe in detail the trials and tribulations faced by road builders in their daily working lives.
From the start I was interested in the motivations of Chinese engineers and builders to move overseas. What drove so many men to Africa? In the 1990s and 2000s, it was largely men who accompanied domestic construction firms to overseas destinations. I was surprised to find that many mentioned a house or a mortgage loan as the primary reason for moving overseas. Most men came from rural China and sought to enter society, which required them to find a job, buy a house, and get married. Unable to rely on the financial support of family members they shouldered the costs of purchasing residential property themselves. Moving overseas enabled them to save money. They not only earned more, but had significantly less expenses. However, after buying a first property, many stayed on, opting to buy a second property, as migration became a way of life.
龚鹏程 ：您从事国际发展关系中的移民研究，跟您自己“游”的经历有关吗？你自己作为移民的经历是否影响了你对移民的研究？
米瑞安·德瑞森 ：我喜欢旅行、体验不同的生活方式。 这就是我选择学习人类学的原因。 作为人类学家，我们去了解他人如何思考、去看待世界和去体验日常生活，同时，为了分析还保持着距离。 人类学家参与他们研究对象的生活，以便更好地掌握决策背后的动机以及研究对象世界观背后的个人故事和历史轨迹。 我选择中国的部分原因，是因为它的社会、语言和文化非常不同。 当然，您在与自己背景不同的国家度过的时间越长，你就发现人与人本身之间的相似度也就越多。
一方面，我在中国的研究极大地帮助了我了解了中国移民的生活。完成博士项目后，我回到中国以进一步了解了中国移民非洲的根源。只有这样，我才能更好地理解是什么原因驱使着这么多的男性来到了非洲。
为了寻找这些根源，我来到了中国农村。与我一起工作的大多数人都来自农村。我发现了更多关于社会经济转型和人口结构变化的信息，这些变化使她们很难买房，并且在没有诸如房产一类能够代表一个人地位阶级的情况下，大多数女性也离开了她们一开始所结婚的地区。
我还发现了农村到城市的迁移和迁移至海外之间的联系。 移居城市和移居海外往往是第二代农民工可以考虑和考虑的两种选择。 农村到城市的迁移，使海外移民和返乡移民在国内变得更加流动。 在中国和埃塞俄比亚之间来往，也帮助我了解了中国的发展与中国主导的非洲发展之间的联系，以及发展实践的传播。
I love travelling and experiencing different ways of living. This is why I chose to study anthropology. As anthropologists we seek to understand how others think, see the world, and experience their daily lives, while remaining an analytic distance. Anthropologists participate in the lives of the people they study in order to better grasp the motivations behind the decisions the make and the personal stories and historical trajectories behind their worldviews. I chose China in part because its society, language, and culture are very different. Of course, the longer you spend in a country different from your own, the more similarities you see among people too.
For one, my research in China has greatly helped me understand Chinese activities overseas and the lives of Chinese migrants live. After finishing my doctoral project, I returned to China to learn more about the roots of Chinese migration to Africa. Only this way, I though, I could better understand what drove so many men to Africa. The search for these roots brought me to rural China. Most of the men I had worked with came from the countryside. I found out more about the socio-economic transformations and demographic changes that made it challenging for them to buy a house and, without this crucial status marker, get married in regions where most women left or married up.
I also discovered the linkages between rural-to-urban migration and overseas migration. Moving to the city and moving overseas were often two options available to, and considered by, second generation migrant workers. Rural-to-urban migration enables overseas migration and migrant returnees become more mobile at home. Moving between China and Ethiopia has also helped me understand the connections between development in China and Chinese-led development in Africa, and the diffusion of development practices.
龚鹏程 ：在华南地区生活和工作的非洲移民人数近年来不断增加。这与在中国的非洲移民和在非洲的中国移民有关系吗？
米瑞安·德瑞森 ：中国到非洲的移民和非洲到中国的移民，都源于中国的新全球化。中国沿海贸易中心的许多非洲移民都是商人。他们与中国和非洲的中国同行开展业务。事实上，许多非洲贸易商已经超越了中国贸易商，因为他们更熟悉本国的市场和消费者口味，同时也找到了进入中国的途径。
当中国在 20 世纪后期成为“世界工厂”时，越来越多的商品在非洲市场上销售，那里的客户渴望生产廉价但实用且丰富的商品，例如家用电器和衣服。可以肯定的是，非洲客户长期以来一直在消费中国制造的产品。然而，过去这些商品主要是由欧洲或印度贸易商等中间商带到非洲大陆的。当中国在 1980 年*开代**放时，中国移民开始冒险外出；最初从浙江、福建、广东等传统的发达地区到东南亚和欧洲更熟悉的地方，后来到非洲。家庭之间，利用国外现有的人际关系网络，降低了移民的风险。随着中国商品开始涌入非洲市场，非洲商人也开始想方设法地从事贸易并冒险进入中国。
然而，正如 Gordon Matthews 所记录的那样，在过去几年，中国的去工业化导致贸易活动从中国转移到越南和东南亚其他地方。贸易商跟随工厂搬迁到提供廉价劳动力的国家。一些中国产业已经转移到非洲。埃塞俄比亚统计了许多中国制革厂、制鞋商和纺织品生产商。中国企业家还参与了水泥、胶合板和玻璃等建筑材料的生产。
我的研究，主要集中在参与基础设施建设项目的中国公民身上。他们与国内公司一起搬到埃塞俄比亚。他们的雇主为他们安排一切，从签证到工作许可，从住房到餐饮，从旅行到娱乐。这些工人中的大多数人住在宿舍里，并受到了时间上的限制和流动性宿舍劳动制度的约束。他们的经历与移民企业家明显不同。
Chinese migration to Africa and African migration to China have both grown out of China’s new globalism. Many African migrants in China’s coastal trading centres are traders. They conduct business with Chinese counterparts in China and Africa. Indeed, many African traders have outcompeted Chinese traders, as they are more familiar with the markets and consumer tastes in their home countries and have meanwhile found their way to China.
When China became the ‘factory of the world’ in the late twentieth century, increasing volumes of commodities were sold in African markets, where customers were hungry for cheaply produced yet practical and often colourful goods, such as household appliances and clothes. To be sure, African customers have long consumed Chinese-made products. However, in the past these commodities were chiefly brought to the African continent by intermediaries, such as European or Indian traders. When China opened up in the 1980s, Chinese migrants started venturing out; initially from traditional sending regions like Zhejiang, Fujian, and Guangdong to more familiar places in South-East Asia and Europe and later to Africa. Families drew on existing networks abroad, making migration less risky. As Chinese commodities started to flood African markets, African traders began to find ways to engage in trading and ventured to China.
In the past few years, however, as Gordon Matthews has documented, deindustrialization in China has led to a shift of trading activities away from China to Vietnam and other places in South-East Asia. The traders follow factories that have relocated to countries that offer cheaper labour. A few Chinese industries have moved to Africa. Ethiopia counts a number of Chinese tanneries and shoe manufacturers and textile producers. Chinese entrepreneurs are also involved in the production of building materials like cement, plywood, and glass.
My research however focuses on Chinese nationals who are attached to infrastructure construction projects. They move to Ethiopia with domestic companies. Their employers arrange everything for them, from visas to work permits, housing to meals, travels to entertainment. Most of these workers live in dormitories and are subject to a dormitory labour regime that restricts their time and mobility. Their experience is markedly different from migrant entrepreneurs.
龚鹏程 ：当然，您的研究还可能有更大的论题，就像你博士论文的题目：中国劳动力在亚洲和非洲的迁移，或另一个你用过的题目：“躁动的大地：转型中的中国农村”， 也就是目前中国“农村空缺”的问题。但若要深入分析这样的大论题，政治和经济问题仍是避不开的，对此，你有何考虑？你未来的研究计划是什么？ 你认为在亚洲或非洲的中国劳工移民研究中需要进一步探索哪些问题？
米瑞安·德瑞森 ：我目前在法律和社会领域工作，从事一个新项目的研究：围绕法院在埃塞俄比亚与中国互动中的作用，揭示了中国企业在海外面临的一些挑战。
自从他们在 1990 年代作为承包商进入该国并在 2000 年代作为投资者进入埃塞俄比亚以来，中国公司面临着越来越多的埃塞俄比亚原告对他们提起的诉讼，其中包括雇员、项目工地沿线居民、分包商、供应商、房东、银行和甚至是政府机关，导致中国管理人员感叹他们在法庭上花费的时间比在建筑工地上花费的时间还多。
是什么导致了法庭案件的激增？法院为埃塞俄比亚和中国的诉讼当事人做了什么？这些是我在最新项目中解决的问题。为此我在埃塞俄比亚法院内外进行了实地考察，阅读了许多法庭案件，并采访了法官、律师以及埃塞俄比亚和中国的原告人和被告人。
至于在埃塞俄比亚的中国移民，COVID-19 对他们的生活造成了重大破坏，并迫使他们重新考虑未来的前景和个人愿望。2020年全球疫情爆发后，他们许多人无法回家与家人团聚。机票价格昂贵得令人望而却步，飞往中国的航班数量受到限制。其他确实有机会返回中国过年假的人决定留下来。大流行扰乱了国际供应链和市场。埃塞俄比亚的一些中国人经营的工厂不得不关门，至少是暂时关闭，导致外籍员工和当地员工都没有工作。许多基础设施项目即将结束，新项目的招标数量减少。形势瞬息万变，中国移民在非洲及其他地区的未来充满不确定性。COVID-19 对非洲中国移民生活的真正影响仍不清楚，未来可能值得研究。
I am currently working within the field of law and society. I started a new project in which I look at the role of the courts in Ethiopian-Chinese interactions, revealing some of the challenges that Chinese enterprises face overseas. Since they entered the country as contractors in the 1990s and as investors in the 2000s, Chinese firms have faced a growing number of lawsuits brought against them by Ethiopian plaintiffs, including employees, residents along project sites, subcontractors, suppliers, landlords, banks, and even government organs, leading Chinese managers to lament that they spend more time in the courtroom than on the construction site. What has led to this surge in court cases? And what do the courts do for Ethiopian and Chinese litigants? These are the questions I address in my latest project, for which I conducted fieldwork in and around Ethiopian courts, read numerous court cases, and interviewed judges, lawyers, and Ethiopian and Chinese disputants.
As for the Chinese migrants in Ethiopia, COVID-19 has caused major disruptions to their lives and forced them to reconsider future prospects and personal aspirations. Many of them were unable to return home and reunite with their families for more than two years following the outbreak of the global pandemic in 2020. Airfares were prohibitively expensive and the number of flights to China was restricted. Others who did get the chance to return to China for the annual break decided to stay. The pandemic has disrupted international supply chains and markets. Some Chinese-run factories in Ethiopia had to close doors, at least temporarily, leaving both expatriate and local staff without work. Many infrastructure projects are coming to an end and fewer tenders are going out for new projects. The situation is changing rapidly, and the future of Chinese migrants in Africa and beyond is uncertain. The real impact of COVID-19 on the lives of Chinese migrant in Africa is still unclear and might be interesting to study in the future.
龚鹏程 ：你曾在厦门和上海生活过15个月，做研究；在北京、贵州又生活了两年。你在中国学习和做研究给你留下了哪些回忆?
米瑞安·德瑞森 ：贵州的乡村给我留下了最深刻的回忆。我住在一个山村的宅基地里，只有一条需要一个多小时的陡峭攀登的山路与外界连接着。大多数居民已经搬出村庄，在山谷或附近的城镇定居。一些家庭留下来见证大自然慢慢接管邻居的田地。树木和杂草覆盖了他们的地块或者坟墓。
在贵州，我领略了转型中的中国农村，以及向外迁移对人、动物和植被的深远影响。我享受乡村生活。然而，邻居们敦促随行的人把我带回城里，不要再让我在乡下“吃苦头”。早上，我帮助居民牵着水牛去山上的牧场。我学会了爬山，也发现了犁地是一件多么累的事情。山里的食物很好吃，猪肉从来没有像这里一样好吃，因为这些猪以家庭种植的蔬菜和天然的东西所喂养。
除了在中国的经历，我还有在埃塞俄比亚经历的“中国”的记忆。在实地考察期间，我花了很多时间与中国移民一起生活。我记得在埃塞俄比亚北部农村的麦田中度过了中国新年。饭厅的屏幕上正在*放播**着春节联欢晚会，墙上和天花板上都挂着五颜六色的气球和对联。每个人都很热闹。然而，那天电话网络已经中断。一些中国大院的居民为了能够联系到中国的家人，辛苦地驾车行驶了 100 公里。晚上，我们玩游戏、吃喝、放鞭炮，吓坏了当地农民。这是异国环境中的庆祝活动。它给我的印象是美丽的，但也令人不安。
My stay in rural Guizhou has left me with the most profound memories. I lived in a homestead in a mountain village that could only be reached by a steep climb of more than an hour. Most residents had moved out of the village and settled in the valley or in the nearby town. A few families stayed behind to witness nature taking over the fields of neighbours. Trees now covered their plots and weeds the graves of family members. In Guizhou I was offered a taste of rural China in transition and the far-reaching consequences of outmigration and its consequences for people, animals, and vegetation. I enjoyed rural life. Neighbours however urged my host to bring be back to the city and no longer have me ‘eat bitterness’ in the countryside. In the mornings, I helped lead the water buffalo the grazing pastures higher up the mountain. I learned to climb, and discovered how heavy ploughing is. The food on top of the mountain was delicious. Pork has never tasted as well as here. The pigs were fed on vegetables grown by the family and natural waste.
Apart from memories of experiences in China, I also have memories from the ‘China’ I experienced in Ethiopia. During fieldwork I spent a good amount of time living with Chinese migrants. I recall spending Chinese New Year in a camp, perched amidst fields of wheat in rural northern Ethiopia. The Spring Festival Gala was playing on screen in the dining hall, where the walls and ceiling were decorated with colourful balloons and festive couplets. Everyone was boisterous. Yet the telephone network had been down that day. Some Chinese compound residents had, in vain, travelled up to 100 kilometres by car in order to be able to reach family members in China. In the evening, we played games, ate, drank, and set of firecrackers, with which we scared local farmers. It was a bubble of festivities in a foreign environment. It struck me as beautiful, but also unsettling.
龚鹏程
龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。
办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为中国孔子博物馆名誉馆长、美国龚鹏程基金会主席。